- 28 Μαρ 2022, 14:20
#757531
REALZEUS έγραψε:markvag έγραψε:Σαφέστατα και ΟΧΙ. Βιετνάμ, Αφγανιστάν, κτλ. Έχασαν ΟΛΕΣ τις μάχες, δεν έκαναν ΚΑΜΙΑ τέτοια επίθεση (μία που έκαναν οι Βιετναμέζοι, ηττήθηκε με τεράστιες απώλειες), κέρδισαν όμως τον πόλεμο.
ΠΡΟΦΑΝΕΣΤΑΤΑ και δεν κερδίζει τον πόλεμο αυτός που κερδίζει τις μάχες. Κερδίζει τον πόλεμο αυτός που είναι ο last man standing.
Τα σκέφτεσαι αυτά που λες; 
Ποιές μάχες κέρδισαν οι Βιετ Κονγκ;; Ή οι Ταλιμπάν;;
Ή μήπως οι κομμουνιστές έχασαν τον πόλεμο στο Βιετνάμ;;; Ή οι σοβιετικοί ή οι αμερικάνοι κέρδισαν στο Αφγανιστάν;;
O Ναπολέωντας στη Ρωσία έχασε
μία μάχη, ΑΦΟΥ είχε αποδεχθεί ότι δεν θα κερδίσει τον πόλεμο και υποχωρούσε με έναν στρατό που ήταν σε μεγάλο βαθμό όχλος και όχι στρατός...
Εξάλλου, οι περισσότερες απώλειές του δεν ήταν από τις μάχες.
REALZEUS έγραψε:markvag έγραψε:ήταν πάνω από το 90% στην αρχή του πολέμου όταν ο κόκκινος στρατός ηττούνταν κατά κράτος και υποχωρούσε
Που τα διάβασες αυτά; 
Στην αρχή δεν υπήρχε καμία βοήθεια!
Πολύ ενδεικτικά, οι πηγές δεν είναι και ότι καλύτερο, αλλά αυτή τη στιγμή δεν μπορώ να βρω κάτι καλύτερο:
At the end of November 1941, only 670 Soviet tanks were available to defend Moscow—that is, in the recently formed Kalinin, Western, and Southwestern Fronts. Only 205 of these tanks were heavy or medium types, and most of their strength was concentrated in the Western Front, with the Kalinin Front having only two tank battalions (67 tanks) and the Southwestern Front two tank brigades (30 tanks).
Extrapolating from available statistics, researchers estimate that British-supplied tanks made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, and certainly made up a significant proportion of tanks available as reinforcements at this critical point in the fighting
A total of 699 Lend-Lease aircraft had been delivered to Archangel by the time the Arctic convoys switched to Murmansk in December 1941. Of these, 99 Hurricanes and 39 Tomahawks were in service with the Soviet air defense forces on January 1, 1942, out of a total of 1,470 fighters. About 15 percent of the aircraft of the 6th Fighter Air Corps defending Moscow were Tomahawks or Hurricanes.
The Soviet Northern Fleet was also a major and early recipient of British Hurricanes, receiving those flown by No. 151 Wing of the RAF, which operated briefly from Soviet airfields near Murmansk. As early as October 12, 1941, the Soviet 126th Fighter Air Regiment was operating with Tomahawks bought from the United States by Britain. Tomahawks also served in defense of the Doroga Zhizni or “Road of Life” across the ice of Lake Ladoga, which provided the only supply line to the besieged city of Leningrad during the winter of 1941–42. By spring and summer of 1942 the Hurricane had clearly become the principal fighter aircraft of the Northern Fleet’s air regiments; in all, 83 out of its 109 fighters were of foreign origin.
(μόνο τα βρετανικά, που ήταν σχετικά λίγα)
Για να δούμε τι λένε γνωστοί αντι-κομμουνιστές:
Nikita Khrushchev offered the same opinion.
"If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war," he wrote in his memoirs. "One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."
However, the real significance of Lend-Lease for the Soviet war effort was that it covered the "sensitive points" of Soviet production -- gasoline, explosives, aluminum, nonferrous metals, radio communications, and so on, says historian Boris Sokolov.
However, the real significance of Lend-Lease for the Soviet war effort was that it covered the "sensitive points" of Soviet production -- gasoline, explosives, aluminum, nonferrous metals, radio communications, and so on, says historian Boris Sokolov.
In 1963, KGB monitoring recorded Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov saying: "People say that the allies didn't help us. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. The Americans provided vital explosives and gunpowder. And how much steel! Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own."
The role of Lend–Lease
The first instalment of wartime Allied aid that reached the Soviet Union in 1942 was
small, amounting to some 5 per cent of Soviet GNP in that year (table 1). Although
Allied aid was used directly to supply the armed forces with both durable goods and
consumables, indirectly it probably released resources to households. By improving
the balance of overall resources it brought about a ceteris paribus improvement in the
payoff to patriotic citizens. In other words, Lend–Lease was stabilising. We cannot
measure the distance of the Soviet economy from the point of collapse in 1942, but it
can hardly be doubted that collapse was near. Without Lend–Lease it would have
been nearer.
(ξαναλέω, οι πηγές δεν είναι και οι καλύτερες, συμφωνούν βέβαια και με άλλες που έχω δει - ακούσει)
Προφανώς και η νίκη ανήκει στον κόκκινο στρατό, αλλά οι δυτικοί σύμμαχοι βοήθησαν και αυτοί και μάλιστα σε κρίσιμα σημεία, όπως αναγνωρίζουν και οι σοβιετικοί ηγέτες. Δεν ήταν σταγόνα στον ωκεανό το lend lease...
Then:
Peugeot 206 1.6 110ps
Citroen C4 Picasso 1,8
MWB 320i Ε90
Now:
Audi A3 1,6 FSI =>
